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Welfare state and riots
Jan, I agree with you entirely.
I suspect IDS will opt for the 2nd of the options mentioned in Peted’s post. The answer to the crisis then: Universal Tebbit.
I suspect IDS will opt for the 2nd of the options mentioned in Peted’s post. The answer to the crisis then: Universal Tebbit.
This made me laugh, good one Tom.
Jan, I agree with you entirely.
In a strange way, it seems as if Peter Oborne of the Daily Telegraph also agrees with Jan’s contribution. He’s written a very good article (although John B may want to step away, it’s awfully long)
The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom
Jan, I agree with you entirely.
In a strange way, it seems as if Peter Oborne of the Daily Telegraph also agrees with Jan’s contribution. He’s written a very good article (although John B may want to step away, it’s awfully long)
The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom
I have to agree the article is very good and spot on in my opinion.
It’s not long and does not use ‘too many words.’
None are wasted. Its an editorial thing with me. Some people seem to think along the lines of ‘why use two words when several sentences will do?’ No offence meant, intended or inferred.
Going back a bit, TSG is the SPG only hampered by social policy briefings and health and safety forms.
Jan, I agree with you entirely.
In a strange way, it seems as if Peter Oborne of the Daily Telegraph also agrees with Jan’s contribution. He’s written a very good article (although John B may want to step away, it’s awfully long)
The moral decay of our society is as bad at the top as the bottom
I have to agree the article is very good and spot on in my opinion.
It’s not long and does not use ‘too many words.’
None are wasted. Its an editorial thing with me. Some people seem to think along the lines of ‘why use two words when several sentences will do?’ No offence meant, intended or inferred.
Going back a bit, TSG is the SPG only hampered by social policy briefings and health and safety forms.
” ... I never write metropolis for seven cents because I can get the same money for city.” (Mark Twain)
The present system obviates the need for the country to provide employment and opportunity, we need a massive change. More jobs means less handouts and more of a feeling of being a part of society.
The joy of being on hold to the DWP so often is that it gives you time to think…
I wish i had certainties, then i could stop thinking and be happy
As with many issues there are many factors that come into play and set off a reaction, however, I personally believe that many young men simply crave excitement and challenge. In a highly regulated society there is a thrill to be had in upsetting the status quo, albeit with often tragic outcomes. In modern times participation in the second World War sufficed, but in the 50s we then had the Teddy boys who smashed up the dance halls and there were the Notting Hill race riots. In the 60s, the mods and rockers fought each other on the south coast beaches. In the 70s there was the Southall riot which resulted in the death of a protester. There was also plenty of football violence. The 80s had the St Paul’s riot in Bristol and the Brixton, Toxteth and Peckham riots. The 90s had rioting again in Brixton, plus Newcastle Upon Tyne. In the 2000s there were riots in Oldham and Birmingham. In this decade we have had the recent copycat riots in various urban areas, helped along by high tech communications.
There are many things society can and should do to remove the seeds of lawlessness and reduce inequality, but I’ve got a sneaking feeling that a minority of young male Brits simply love a good punch up with the police, not to mention the acquisition of some ‘spoils of war’. It will be a long time before there is an effective solution forthcoming from the rest of society, what we will probably see is the police deploying their own high tech deterrents, and in all probability, with further unintended tragic outcomes.
here’s a link to guardian article on -
England riots: anti-poverty groups question evictions and benefit cuts
setting out responses from CPAG, Joseph Rowntree Foundation, Peabody and Chartered Institute of Housing.
There is an interesting and, some might say, controversial, piece by Dominic Lawson in today’s Independent. I make no comment either way.
Having just come back from holiday, I have read this discussion thread in one go. The one thing which struck me in all posts was the omission of the original cause or spark for the disturbances (they were not “proper” riots), i.e. the shooting of the guy in the taxi. If this shooting had not happened I doubt we would have witnessed such scenes. I saw the Tottenham problem as a reaction against trigger happy” police, which then escalated into a looting frenzy by the “chancers”. All that followed was copycat looting in other major English cities.
There is just as much poverity and lack of opportunity in Glasgow and Edinburgh, but they remained peaceful throughout. Is there an English dimension to this which is absent in other parts of the UK? Has devolved government removed some of the key factors which were at work in England? I don’t know.
Is there a difference between a riot and wholesale looting? I think there probably is. To calls these disturbances riots is to somehow give them credence and reason far beyond what is justified. However what is required now is measured and thoughtful responses to these events within the affected communities to try and minimise any future excuses for so called economic/politically motivated “riots” (looting opportunities).
“However what is required now is measured and thoughtful responses….....”
Precisely!
“The truth is rarely pure and never simple”.
Oscar Wilde
@johnwilson - I would like also to point out that the Terry Stoke’s blog piece linked to in the first post very clearly references (with links) the death of Mr Duggan as being the spark that ignited events:
“This weekend has seen some shocking scenes of violence and looting breaking out across a number of areas of London. There was a largely peaceful protest in Tottenham on Saturday evening, when family and friends of Mark Duggan went along to Tottenham Police Station asking questions about Mr Duggan’s death on Thursday”
However, as rightsnet is primarily a place concerned with welfare rights, that was why I linked to the Spiked piece which laid the blame firmly at the door of the welfare state. Subsequently, the proposals to remove welfare benefits (and social housing) have moved to the forefront of popular discourse and this issue is worth discussing in and of itself I feel, aside from the wider discourse taking place.
That Oscar Wilde fellow has a great way with words. I agree everything is in shades of grey, not black and white, but Oscar says it more poetically ;~)
Thanks for pointing that out Paul. Also with regard to the political posturing and the pathetic attempts to show who has the biggest Kahoonas, once the immediacy of the vote winning opportunities have abated, that’s when real work can be done within the affected communities. This work will be done by the charities and agencies represented in the pages of Rightsnet, and other support and voluntary bodies, quietly and without fanfare, away from the glare of corrupt politicians.
I think that there is a lot of blustering from the tabloids and the Tories on benefit withdrawal for those not sent to prison as I’d love to see how they are going to do this as they are going to have huge legal problems with retrospectivity.
There was a great scene at the end of an episode of Kavanagh QC. At the end of a complex court case from which neither party came out undamaged. John Thaw and his opposite number were standing in the empty court. John Thaw turned to his colleague and said something like - the world will carry on stumbling along in its usual manner while you and I will carry on taking shades of grey and keep turning them into black and white.
I think they’d have to insert a new bit in the Welfare Reform Bill to be able to do it - sadly there’s so much in there about sanctions already it would be very easy to slip a bit in.
Whose benefit though? I bet half those involved aren’t even on benefits, at least the kids living at home with parents. Mind you, it would be all of a piece with the general thinking to penalise the parents, many of whome ae probably scared to death of their kids. And those who lose their jobs as a result of the conviction (plenty of high-profile examples in the press) can expect a 28 week sanction under present rules.
The benefits of rioting - new blog piece from Terry Stokes, Lasa CEO on proposals to remove welfare benefits from convicted rioters.
LAG blog on ‘Rioters, punishment and justice’ says that government suggestion that benefits should be cut and public sector tenants evicted would be both ‘unjust and morally wrong’ -
At the risk of being outed as immature…
I was reading todays M.E.N during my post tribunal lunch.
The scene reminded me of a Zombie film.
Then I remembered that Zombie films were a metaphor for consumerism.
http://www.americanpopularculture.com/journal/articles/fall_2002/harper.htm
p.s. I warn that the article contains many, many, many words.
But just think of all the extra work for advisers and lawyers challenging decisions to stop benefits, evict tenents etc - are we a product of welfare state dependancy?!
But just think of all the extra work for advisers and lawyers challenging decisions to stop benefits, evict tenents etc - are we a product of welfare state dependancy?!
http://libcom.org/library/against-state-1979
highly recommended reading on this subject
Lots of words some with multiple syllables
But just think of all the extra work for advisers and lawyers challenging decisions to stop benefits, evict tenents etc - are we a product of welfare state dependancy?!
http://libcom.org/library/against-state-1979
highly recommended reading on this subject
Lots of words some with multiple syllables
I got to socialists then gave up
I have a confession to make. I was out the other week doing a little bit of rioting myself. I was trying to get a load of free tea bags. You see I like tea a lot and will only use tea bags because all property is theft.
Quick, start the car!
David Blunkett, former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, has written a pamphlet calling for the introduction of a National Volunteering Programme for young people, aged 16-24. Directly referencing the recent riots and estimating that only 1 in 10 people dealt with by the courts were in employment, he introduces his proposals by writing:
The importance of developing active and vibrant communities is self evident. Yet, in an ever increasing global economic, social and cultural environment – with twenty-four hour, seven-days-a-week news – the anchor, stability and security of community has never been more important. The old adage think global, act local, is more relevant than ever.
The riots in August 2011 made this clear. From the Scarman Report into the riots of 1981, and the various inquiries into disturbances in some northern cities in 2001, there are lessons that we already have to hand in advance of the ‘victims’ panel’ taking evidence:
1. The vast majority of those involved were under-25s;
2. Those taking part showed a severe disregard for people, their property and their communities;
3. The rioting largely occurred in areas of urban deprivation.
Participants could volunteer in care homes, or assist with support in the homes of those needing help to enable older people to stay in their own home for longer. The programme would be on a nine month basis and would be geared to social, educational and environmental programmes that would aim to transform the community and provide confidence building, self esteem and new experiences for young people. There would be a proper stipend for the participants and, where they were away from home, accommodation and food.
Whilst the programme would be voluntary, Blunkett proposes to build in incentives designed to help young people in their future life. It would provide them with a passport that would have financial as well as other benefits accredited to it, which could be redeemed either in relation to university fees or for particular start up programmes for employment, continuing training or a deposit for accommodation.
Curiously, the Daily Mail feature on these proposals is headlined Why Britain needs a new kind of National Service (and young people who won’t sign up should be denied benefits) despite the fact that the removal of benefits isn’t actually included in the pamphlet at all.
[ Edited: 31 Aug 2011 at 10:43 pm by Paul Treloar ]On a slightly less philosophical tack I was interested to read in todays Private Eye that David Cameron has apparently announced that Emma Harrison of A4E is going to be central to his ‘fightback after the riots’ and that she had been asked to ‘develop a plan to help get these families back on track’. I think it would be fair to say that A4E do not have a particularly good record as far as helping people back into work and I can’t help but wonder what she could possibly do.
Perhaps we should print out all the replies to the topic and flog it to her as a consultancy paper!
“Fightback after the riots”. The language says it all really. How depressing
David Blunkett, former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, has written a pamphlet calling for the introduction of a National Volunteering Programme for young people, aged 16-24. Directly referencing the recent riots and estmiating that only 1 in 10 people dealt with by the courts were in employment, he introduces his proposals by writing:
The importance of developing active and vibrant communities is self evident. Yet, in an ever increasing global economic, social and cultural environment – with twenty-four hour, seven-days-a-week news – the anchor, stability and security of community has never been more important. The old adage think global, act local, is more relevant than ever.
The riots in August 2011 made this clear. From the Scarman Report into the riots of 1981, and the various inquiries into disturbances in some northern cities in 2001, there are lessons that we already have to hand in advance of the ‘victims’ panel’ taking evidence:
1. The vast majority of those involved were under-25s;
2. Those taking part showed a severe disregard for people, their property and their communities;
3. The rioting largely occurred in areas of urban deprivation.Participants could volunteer in care homes, or assist with support in the homes of those needing help to enable older people to stay in their own home for longer. The programme would be on a nine month basis and would be geared to social, educational and environmental programmes that would aim to transform the community and provide confidence building, self esteem and new experiences for young people. There would be a proper stipend for the participants and, where they were away from home, accommodation and food.
Whilst the programme would be voluntary, Blunkett proposes to build in incentives designed to help young people in their future life. It would provide them with a passport that would have financial as well as other benefits accredited to it, which could be redeemed either in relation to university fees or for particular start up programmes for employment, continuing training or a deposit for accommodation.
Curiously, the Daily Mail feature on these proposals is headlined Why Britain needs a new kind of National Service (and young people who won’t sign up should be denied benefits) despite the fact that the removal of benefits isn’t actually included in the pamphlet at all.
I got to David Blunkett then gave up.
I got to David Blunkett then gave up.
Thanks for trying anyway :-)