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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #13

Subject: "Tax Credits" First topic | Last topic
whitegates
                              

welfare rights officer, east dunbartonshire council
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

Tax Credits
Thu 29-Jan-04 07:33 AM

It is our understanding that Tax Credit overpayments are not appealable. Is this correct and, if so, surely this is against natural justice?

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Tax Credits, Semitone, 27th Jan 2004, #1
RE: Tax Credit overpayments, steve_johnson, 28th Jan 2004, #2
      RE: Tax Credit overpayments, shawn, 29th Jan 2004, #4
      RE: Tax Credit overpayments, Semitone, 30th Jan 2004, #5
           RE: Tax Credit overpayments, Andrew_Fisher, 30th Jan 2004, #6
                RE: Tax Credit overpayments, Andrew_Fisher, 30th Jan 2004, #7
                RE: Tax Credit overpayments, Semitone, 30th Jan 2004, #8
                     RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, steve_johnson, 30th Jan 2004, #9
                          RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, Bernard, 16th Feb 2004, #10
                               RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, stainsby, 17th Feb 2004, #11
                               RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, shawn, 17th Feb 2004, #12
                                    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, Julian Hobson, 20th Feb 2004, #13
                                         RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, Semitone, 20th Feb 2004, #14
                                         RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, Semitone, 20th Feb 2004, #15
                                              RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, gmorgan, 20th Feb 2004, #16
                                                   RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, Semitone, 24th Feb 2004, #17
                                                   The gmorgan example, steve_johnson, 25th Feb 2004, #18
                                                        RE: The gmorgan example, expresstraining, 02nd Mar 2004, #19
                                                             Johns reply, steve_johnson, 05th Mar 2004, #20
                               RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, VictoriaJ, 09th Mar 2004, #21
                                    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals, glenys harriman, 12th Mar 2004, #22

Semitone
                              

welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Tax Credits
Tue 27-Jan-04 03:15 PM

That would seem to be the case. Our office is informing those contacting our advice line that waiting for an o/p letter could be harmful to their finances and where the reconciliation letter shows a lower award than that previously given, we advise the client to appeal it. That at least will allow time for some negotiation on repayment where there is hardship/official error. We also advise appealing the o/p letter, if only to provide figures for how many affected when it hits the fan in April.

Our experience is the The Inland Revenue seem more interested in smash and grab. One client I spoke to mentioned she only found out through Income Support that she had an overpayment. The IR didn't even bother to send an o/p letter.

  

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steve_johnson
                              

manager, walthamstow cab
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Tax Credit overpayments
Wed 28-Jan-04 05:01 PM

There is indeed no right of appeal to tribunal, and no statutory circumstances where an overpayment should not be recovered. The code of practice refers to hardship cases etc (see past threads passim), but the claimant has to do all the running. I am interested in the idea of racking up appeals, even if they are bound to fail, but I wonder if the IR will keep the figures anyway. What happened to that amnesty proposal?

Steve

  

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shawn
                              

Charter member

RE: Tax Credit overpayments
Thu 29-Jan-04 07:37 AM

hope this helps ...

here's some links to the most recent threads on the old forum relating to tax credits overpayments –

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum/family/251.html
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum/family/247.html
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum/family/240.html
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum/family/232.html
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum/family/227.html

and for further background re the code of practice see

  • Tax credit overpayments: Thousands of payments reduced or wiped out completely
  • Tax credit overpayments: Recovery rates too high say CPAG & Citizens Advice
  • Recovery of tax credit overpayments: Inland Revenue republish code of practice

      

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  • Semitone
                                  

    welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayments
    Fri 30-Jan-04 07:30 AM

    Don't know if anything came of the early day motion. The last time I looked only about 10 or ii MP's had signed up to it.

    Racking up appeals would at least give some official figures to the level of whats going on. I am a bit confused to the rules on how those appeals would be treated. For Benefits they would be passed to appeals service as misconceived or lack of jurisdiction and struck out but I cant see similar provisions with Tax Credits.

    I have this bad gut feeling that there could be worse to come with TC's. Rightsnet News in November reported Dawn Primarallo saying for end of year reconciliations claimants will have till September 2004 to provide 2003-2004 income details but during the renewal tax Credit payments would continue.

    So, Mr X in July/August 2004 notifies IR of Income details.
    What if Mr X has income for 2003-2004 thats higher than the income used for assessing the tax credit payments for that year but the £2500 buffer takes care of it. What about the continuing Tax Credit payments from April 2004 which don't have the £2500 cushion.

    Worse still, what if income for 2003-2004 exceeds the £2500 buffer.
    Presumably you not only have an overpayment for 2003-2004 but also for 2004-2005 for the length of time its taken you to notify your income details. Double whammy!

      

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    Andrew_Fisher
                                  

    Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
    Member since
    23rd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayments
    Fri 30-Jan-04 07:56 AM

    My understanding from speaking to someone at the TCO appeals section in November 2003 or so was that recoverability appeals were being stockpiled but not struck out or otherwise acted on. Some early ones had been prepared as test cases to test jursidiction through TAS, but none of the others were touched because the appeals section had enough to do sorting out eligibility cases let alone appeals with no statutory right of access. That's what he said, anyway.

    My experience is that I've yet to see any appeal properly prepared but I've seen people with mixed eligibility/recoverability appeals told that their appeal has been settled (no agreement or anything) and clear eligibility appeals just sitting around for months with nothing happening. I have certainly not seen an appeal bundle and frankly I think that's more of a natural justice problem than the overpayment issue because as of yet there are no overpayments of tax credits and there cannot be until the end of the tax year. There are only perceived overpayments which are being scandalously recovered in year.

    Has anyone seen a tax credits appeal bundle???

      

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    Andrew_Fisher
                                  

    Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
    Member since
    23rd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayments
    Fri 30-Jan-04 08:02 AM

    Shawn has just published a link to successful appeals for Dec 02 to Nov 03 showing 70 CTC appeals and 10 WTC appeals in that period, precisely none of them being successful.

    Anybody betting against them all being recoverability appeals?

    Anybody betting against them being unrepresented?

      

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    Semitone
                                  

    welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayments
    Fri 30-Jan-04 08:13 AM

    Recently assisted a single parent who was notified she didn't have a child. Appealed it and lo and behold case turned round and money in the bank. However, appeal never acknowledged and she received a phone call of all things saying that appeal would lapse. Asked for written confirmation of appeal and its lapsing and they asked why it was needed. Clt said they sounded miffed. The case mirrors what you describe Andrew.

    Tax Credit appeal bundle-nope, never seen one, on a par with the yeti, bigfoot and Leeds winning the premiership.

      

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    steve_johnson
                                  

    manager, walthamstow cab
    Member since
    21st Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 30-Jan-04 09:45 AM

    Whilst there may be appeals being stockpiled etc, you get the feeling they are doomed to fail, unless the issue is whether there has been an actual overpayment in the first place. If there is an overpayment, what would we put in a submission, given that they are all recoverable?

    The IR decision maker need only turn to page 7 of the Code of Practice to be confident about the lack of grounds for appeals etc. In the parallel world of HB overpayments, although the rules were changed/diluted in October 2000, there could still be some success in encouraging HB officers to look or at least think about the question of whether to recover. Can't see the IR doing this, not least because of the tone of the Code (change the Code - theres a social policy goal NACAB!) As things stand, how many claimants will know of or feel confident enough to run hardship defences without help?

      

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    Bernard
                                  

    Welfare Benefits Caseworker, East Area, Manchester Citizens Advcie Bureaux
    Member since
    09th Feb 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Mon 16-Feb-04 05:27 PM

    I have my first WTC overpayment. The notice says you have 30 days to appeal, so I plan to appeal it for my client.

    Now, I hope they'll suspend recovery until TAS hears it. Is this being done?

    Secondly, is there any scope for offsetting against DWP benefits that could have been paid, i.e. IS? (After all both IR & DWP are part of the same government.)

    I'm still waiting for a copy of the TC regs, so comments would help.

      

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    stainsby
                                  

    Welfare Benefits Officer, Gallions Housing Association, Thamesmead SE London
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Tue 17-Feb-04 08:01 AM

    I am dealing with an overpayment dispute and have had to involve the clients MP as recovery is still taking place despite the "appeal".

    Not sure which of the many tax credit regs you are after, but you can find some if not all of them on

    http://www.hbinfo.org/menu2/si/siindex.htm

      

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    shawn
                                  

    Charter member

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Tue 17-Feb-04 08:08 AM

    plus .. every tax credit reg and related bit of dwp/local auth guidance is available from rightsnet @

    http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/cgi-bin/publisher/display.cgi?1148-4103-23484+swopshop

    (for future reference a link is also available from the legislation and guidance sections of toolkit - see the navigation bar at the top of the page)

      

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    Julian Hobson
                                  

    Policy officer, Kirklees Metropolitan Council
    Member since
    26th Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 20-Feb-04 09:02 AM

    Attended an IR "training" day (more of a selling opportunity) in Manchester this week and i'm sure that many WR organisations will have or will be attending. The day was really about the renewal process in 2004/5 and "reconciliation" for 2003/4.

    I was very interested to hear that there had been no overpayments this year and that anyone that thought they had been overpaid had simply had a "re-profiling" of their award to ensure that the total paid for the year was correct.

    Overpayments might occur in the 3 Million cases due for a "non automatic" renewal in 2004/5 when people declare their actual income for 2003/4.

    We were also told that payment whilst the 2004/5 rate is established will be made at 2003/4 rates.

    What that means is that if 2003/4 rate is wrong and persists for the first half of 2004/5, come september 2004 someone might be faced with an overpayment for 2003/4 (recovered from 2004/5 award) and a "reprofiling" of the first half of 2004/5, significantly reducing (or effectively wiping out ) the award for the remainder of 2004/5.

    Interesting times ahead for everyone !

      

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    Semitone
                                  

    welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 20-Feb-04 11:53 AM

    Thanks Julian, I posted that up earlier in this post and felt paranoid doing it. Remember the 2500 buffer is only for the first year. But alas, could it be worse. I'm thinking about the procedure for final notices being sent out which is detailed at page 1332 of the CPAG handbook. I always assumed that you had to respond to a final notice yet the section "Previous Years Income " seems to be saying that they'll make the decision anyway if you don't.

    What a mess.

      

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    Semitone
                                  

    welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 20-Feb-04 12:31 PM

    Now I am paranoid! just checked books re the 2500 buffer and can't find the reference to lasting only a year even though training notes this is the case. Anybody correct me or humiliate me on this one

    Tony

      

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    gmorgan
                                  

    Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
    Member since
    20th Feb 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 20-Feb-04 04:10 PM

    It doesn't last just one year.

    It applies in each year when there is an increase in income over the previous year by more than £2,500.00. Where there is an increase of a lesser sum then the total increase is ignored.

    In an example.

    X has no reckonable income in year 2001 / 2002
    X gets a job half way through the tax year in September 2003 providing reckonable income of £20,000.00 a year

    In IR terms Xs income therefore is (PY = Previous year basis, CY = Current year basis):

    2003/2004 - PY = £0 CY = £7,500 (£10,000 less £2,500)

    2004/2005 - PY = £7,500 CY = £17,500 (£20,000 less £2,500 as £20,000 is more than £2,500 greater than £10,000)

    2005/2006 PY = £20,000 CY = £20,000 (Steady state - no buffer)

    This is the situation that provides many of the complexities in the situation. The amount of TC that is paid depends on which method of income assesment the client chooses - either are legitimate. In almost all cases where there has been an increase in income, remaining on a PY basis generates an interest free loan from the IR (loosely being called an overpayment) plus potentially an increase (often substantial) in HB in subsequent periods.

    In the above example you will notice that in 2004 / 2005 the TC in payment, on a PY basis, will be:
    a) higher because only the previous half year is being taken into account and because of the buffer
    b) producing lower, if any, HB because the HB income is higher.

    In 2005 / 2006 the TC amount will be lower because of:
    a) loss of buffer produces higher reckonable income, less TC
    b) Adjustment for previous higher payment (recovery of overpayment)

    The net TC figure overall will be the same, in this case more of it will have been paid up front.

    The lower TC figure will though produce a lower HB income in that year which will potentially generate higher HB, in typical figures often as much as £1,500 more in that year.

    There are more complex scenarios which generate quire odd results but I'm not going to try and explain them here.

      

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    Semitone
                                  

    welfare rights officer, Redcar & Cleveland Welfare Rights
    Member since
    22nd Jan 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Tue 24-Feb-04 07:19 AM

    Thanks gmorgan, looked up and found the TC Act provision and still wiping egg off face. That will teach me to double check next time.
    Now I'm off for a lie down.

      

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    steve_johnson
                                  

    manager, walthamstow cab
    Member since
    21st Jan 2004

    The gmorgan example
    Wed 25-Feb-04 03:45 PM

    Dear gmorgan,

    Are you sure the py figure for 2004/2005 is £7,500, rather than £10,000? If it is £7,500, then surely the py figure for 2005/2006 should be £17,500 rather than £20,000. I thought the py figure would be before the £2,500 buffer, when making a comparison to the cy (otherwise the benefit is surely more than they intended!).

    Steve

      

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    expresstraining
                                  

    training and consultancy in welfare benefits law, www.expresstrainingassociates.co.uk Bath UK
    Member since
    28th Jan 2004

    RE: The gmorgan example
    Tue 02-Mar-04 10:40 AM

    It might help to revise / annotate the gmorgan example in order to distinguish the concepts of PY income / CY income from "relevant income" as defined in s7. So...

    2003/2004 - PY = £0 CY = £10,000
    so relevant income for TCs in 03-04 is £7500 (£10,000 less £2,500)

    2004/2005 - PY = £10000 CY = £20000
    so relevant income for TCs in 04-05 is £17500 (£20,000 less £2,500)

    2005/2006 PY = £20,000 CY = £20,000
    so relevant income for TCs in 05-06 is £20000 (Steady state - no buffer)

    The results are the same as Gareth's, but Steve is right about his first point, though not his second. (IMHO)

    "Income" whether PY or CY is always calculated without reference to the £2500 buffer, whereas "relevant income" may take account of the buffer.

    -John Eames

      

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    steve_johnson
                                  

    manager, walthamstow cab
    Member since
    21st Jan 2004

    Johns reply
    Fri 05-Mar-04 12:37 PM

    Many thanks for the clarification.

    Steve

      

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    VictoriaJ
                                  

    Generalist Adviser, Holborn Citizens Advice Bureau (Camden - London)
    Member since
    18th Feb 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Tue 09-Mar-04 03:28 PM

    A very late response, but I was reading the more recent posts...
    There would appear to be no way to offset. It is very common to see people who stop work, inform IR, apply for IS and find that the IR take months to process the claim.
    IS calculate using the actual amount of CTC/WTC paid.
    IR can recover the entire overpayment. Any remaining tax credit is then drastically reduced, and the IS that should have been paid is just lost.
    Where people have stopped work and the WTC/CTC has been closed completely there may also be a lot of overpayments that have not been recovered as the IR would wish, but can be taken from CTC as soon as those on IS are transfered.
    Now that is a social policy issue for NACAB.

      

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    glenys harriman
                                  

    benefits and income adviser, north british housing west yorkshire
    Member since
    10th Feb 2004

    RE: Tax Credit overpayment appeals
    Fri 12-Mar-04 02:45 PM

    re victoriaj's reply about tax credit implications for i.s. just come across one that seems almost the converse of victoria's where i.s. used actual amount of ctc/wtc paid. in this case single parent applied for i.s. and they said they had to use "the maximum wtc/ctc she would be entitled to" rather than what she was actually getting. (her income has drastically reduced). so she applied to IR to have the amount of ctc/wtc that IS think she should get (and on which they base their calculation- incidentally giving her nil i.s. entitlement) and IR said that as she's already had more tax credits through the year than she was entitled to ( their error by the way) they were loth to increase her award! and she'd have to wait for final reconciliation in April! So what happens in the meantime? No i.s. as they say she should be getting about £140 total tax credits per week, and no increased tax credit as they say she's had more than enough through the year. BIG GAP. this looks like another social policy issue. any takers?

      

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    Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #13First topic | Last topic