We have been quite sheltered in this part of the world as we seem to be one of the last areas to convert to JCP CMS etc. However the inevitable is now to arrive shortly. At a recent liason meeting when discussing concerns about CMS we were told that other areas of the country who had been operating the new systems had not had any problems (?!?!?!?). I suggested that the DWP rep should spend 5 minutes looking at Rightnet!

AAAAGGHHHHH!!!

So you have liaison meetings with JC+? Expect a bumpy ride with CMS. Watford Jobcentre has just moved to the new setup and has told us (in response to a phone query about IS claim forms) that everyone MUST now claim by phone. We won't be standing for that!

They might have to make initial contact by phone (unless we all download the A1 form posted in another thread), but cls and advisers can ask for a clerical form to be sent out. The Call Centres dont like doing it and will try everything to avoid it....but clerical claims are still valid whether its through CMS or downloaded A1s.

If you help a client to make a claim for bemefits, which will include housing/council tax benefit, then make sure they make a claim directly with the Local Authority, by obtaining the claim form in person if posible.
There are loads of problems with CMS sending h/ben details to the Local Authority.

I was interested in margie's posting as earlier in the week my request for a paper form on the grounds that the cl didn't have phone was refused, 'helpline'(??) said she could go to the jobcentre and use the phone there. When I pointed out she was afraid to go out alone they arranged for her to be rung back on my mobile number in about ten minutes and someone took the claim then and there.

It is often difficult with just two of us covering a whole county seventy miles long and about forty miles wide to just get back to someone the next day to field the 'phone call and going ahead straight away was in this case quite daunting for the largely unprepared client so I would be grateful if margie or anyone else has a piece of dmg or legislation we can quote to get a paper form sent out, the only way I've been able to get them is if the client is in hospital.
thanks, pete

Given the problems with CMS, and the fact that a national action plan has been set up to deal with them, the attempt to inform advice organisations and claimants representatives that there were no problems with CMS is something of a concern.

(see rightsnet news)
lucky slloyd was there.

there are a number of technical terms which relate to the denial of reality. one of them is 'lie' - an unpleasant term, which no-one really likes to use. another is 'insanity' - which was the word chosen by a 'processor' i spoke to recently, who was explaining that there are so many stages where things can get lost. he did his best to be helpful, and i couldn't help feeling sorry for him and his colleagues. he explained that people will take claim forms to the jobcentre rather than send them to the processing centre, but the jobcentre sends them to the PO box number anyway, then they are sent out to the processing office admin, to await distribution etc... his frustration was palpable, but as he said, what they thought didn't matter, and they just had to do it this way...he sounded like a normal person who had concluded he worked for a bunch of psychopaths.

this was in connection with missing claim forms going back to last August - client has just submitted a duplicate backdated med cert, and third set of claim forms, and her doctor has told her he won't issue another one. we know that one IS claim got there, but it got closed down because the IB claim, sent in the same envelope, got lost.

another client has just been awarded JSA from 9/1/06. he had appealed against the disallowance from that date, made on the grounds that he had failed to provide verification. the 9/1/06 claim was actually a duplicate claim, and he had provided verification THREE times. there is no decision on his original claim, made on 21/9/06, with a backdating request to 12/9/05, on the grounds that it took him two solid weeks of ringing before he got through to the permanently engaged call centre. his appointment was on 3/11/05. he provided his first set of proofs next day. they were sent to the processing centre, so he was told, on 8/12/05 (we're hoping the phonecall was recorded) but they 'disappeared'. he provided them again, and a third time when he was asked to complete another claim form on 9/1/05, for reasons which were not explained to him.

he came to me in late Feb. when he received the disallowance of the 9/1/06 claim. i was lucky he had a really good memory. more disadvantaged claimants would be even more baffled than he was. also by a stroke of luck, his CTC claim is ok, so he's just had to manage on £86 quid a week less than his entitlement for 6 months...when it could have been more disastrous...
as well as his appeal, he's put in a data protection complaint... i expect we'll see a few more of these now that the government has got people worried about identity theft, for its ID card bill...what did it expect...?

i know of course, that i and other reps who have spoken here on rightsnet, see only a sample of problems, and we have no way of knowing how rare or common they are overall. but it does raise questions about the DWP average processing time figures, and how reliable they are precisely. they are provided to the NAO and the scrutiny committee, and if those people do not get a genuine picture, how can they give valid assessments? has my client's claim from September disappeared out of the figures? my client's complaint has just been acknowledged by a PROFORMA, which i take as a bad sign, and now people here are talking of the problems spreading to housing benefit claims...

for pc, another problem. the law on claims hasn't changed. you can still quote the C&P regs, and you can quote DWP HQ on policy - mike shermer has posted details of the contact here - maybe shawn can find the link. but if the call centre staff have not been given training on the relevance of the law to social security entitlement, it is not particularly effective. the new staff have been given 'scripts' and script training - they are aware that there are rules, in the sense that the DWP demands compliance with certain rules, but not that benefit entitlement is law based and it cuts more than one way... and the old staff have been given training in CMS - and many seem to assume that the law has been changed for CMS, when it hasn't. so bandying the law, when the policy stresses procedure only, can be like water off a duck's back. the DWP has been aware of the problems for a long time now, but despite the assurances given about claim forms, it hasn't noticeably modified its instructions to staff. the gap between law and procedure is unprecedentedly wide

people have to complain or appeal, and many don't or can't. it falls to the tribunals, and people like you, both of you, for the whole county of cornwall, and luck - for you may still manage to get your client's case to the attention of a person with some training in social security law, or a few individuals at policy branch who may intervene, or a local MP...but it seems to be becoming increasingly random and unequal.

To PC

The Reg' you want is Reg' 4(5) of the Claims and Payments Regs 1987 which states: -

5) Where a person who wishes to make a claim for benefit and who has not been supplied with an approved form of claim notifies an appropriate office (by whatever means) of his intention to make a claim, he shall be supplied, without charge, with such form of claim by such person as the Secretary of State may appoint or authorise for that purpose."

The word "shall" makes it a mandatory requiurement to send or give a paper claim form to a claimant who requests one.

Regards
Paul

Clerical claims are to be accepted in all JCP offices - see extract from DWP Standards Committee advisory group, which asked for clarification on this issue...

====================================================================

Information on the guidance given on accepting clerical claim forms (121).

Answer
Clerical claim forms can still be used if requested. A Standard Operating Model covering the use of clerical claim forms is being developed. When produced this will be supported by appropriate guidance. In the meantime, the SOM Implementation Team is to publish an article in May's edition of Managers Update clarifying the current position. This will make it clear that the use of clerical claim forms is an acceptable medium for claiming benefit and if someone wants to claim by that route they must not be refused. A further update will appear in June's edition.

=====================================================================

So, if you get any further problems, refer them to the Managers Update, May edition.

Thanks for that, I most certainly will as well as hitting them with Paul's caselaw!

In Leicester the Jobcentre seem to be operating a policy of refusing to fill forms in for clients who have not fully completed them by the time of their work focused interview leading to longer delays before they recieve money and the konck on effect that they turn up at advice agencies neededing forms filling immediately. Even BSL users are told (via Social Worker) they must use the contact centre!

I just had an interesting conversation with Bootle CMS.
I asked for a paper claim form to be sent to a cl who has suffered a stroke and has been left with speech problems. Despite quoting from the letter sent by their Manager about paper claim forms I was told that it was up to individual JCPs whether they accepted clerical forms and that it was only in cases of system breakdown/malfunction that clerical forms were issued!! Hmmm thought they were all bound by the same regulations.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

claimant rang the call centre to ask for an IB claim form. he made it clear that he didn't want to claim IS - he knew he would not be entitled. ok, said the guy pleasantly, and proceeded to ask every question under the sun, taking approx 40 mins. claimant is then sent computer print-outs of the telephone questionnaire (10 pages of means-testing questions about wife, mortgage, the lot) and NO IB claim form...man is holding his head, looking bewildered - " i didn't think i had a problem with forms, but i can't make head nor tail of this lot.."

doesn't it breach data protection principles, btw?

My latest experience

With a client the other day with a JSA problem..wont go into details but the upshot was he wasn't getting the benefit we were expecting, the chronology was very complex and the client was very unclear about hte whole thing. No paperwork of course. Knowing full well that a phone call was not going to get me anywhere and inspired by a recent liason meeting where we were told that JC+ would help with these enquiries, I frog marched the client round to the local JCP office. Spoke to reception and got an appointment to come back in half an hour. Fair enough.

When we got there we met a very nice and very experienced customer service bod who did her best and tried to look up the records for us.

Half the records were completely missing from the databases (of which there were several apparently). An appeal already lodged was with another office, but no details on screen, an employment issue (i.e. voluntary leaving) was with another office (no further details on screen) and and a backdating decision was being made by yet another office (again no further info on screen). Every time we asked for more info or a screen print, JCP bod wrote out a letter of consent which client had to sign (data protection apparently but bizarre when the client was there and the "verbal" info was coming freely!). The info we did get was full of jargon, codes and abreviations. When we ran over the alloted time (10 minutes I think) the floor managers were coming over and telling the JCP bod that the next customers were waiting. I was struggling to understand the info we were being given (what chance did the client have?).

Felt a bit sorry for the bod behind the desk who admitted that the new systems were a nightmare. We eventually left (already starting to draft the long letter required in my head) feeling a bit bemused. Client, who had tried himself on several occasions said it was the best response he had been able to get out of them!

Sorry for the rant...

Anybody else notice this little gem as a Rightsnet news item?

The DWP has issued new guidance in relation to changes to claims and supersession rules introduced by the Social Security (Miscellaneous Amendments) (No. 3) Regulations 2006 (SI.No.2377/2006).

NB - from 2 October 2006, the new regulations provide that -


....The time limits for claiming income support or JSA may be extended by a period of up to a month where the claimant was unable to notify the appropriate office of their intention to make a claim because departmental telephone lines were busy or inoperative...

No problems with DWP call centres then.