Hi, I have done some research about CMS and the nationwide problems it is causing. A local HB office has just started to be part of the CMS and is refusing to allow some of my clients to make a paper claim for Housing Benefit direct to them. They even turned away a support worker who was hand delivering a completed claim form and evidence.

We are trying to meet with the local HB office to make special arrangements with them for a supported housing scheme for young people leaving care. Basically, we want to make HB claims in advance (of them becoming 18) on a claim form, with supplied evidence.

My question is - am I right in thinking that legally they are not allowed to refuse us this request?

Appreciate any input

lisa

You are correct. LAs have no LEGAL basis to refuse claims. Make a formal complaint and follow it through the chain.

For what it's worth, my own local LA (i.e. where I live) attempts to do the same thing. I asked them to show me the reg / law that allows them to refuse claims. I'm still waiting. But, some claims at least are being accepted.

An alternative is to send by post & obtain a certificate of posting.

Some LAs (not all) have taken CMS as being a new way of claiming. It is - but there is nothing to allow LAs to refuse claims in the normal way.

Until it's resolved, keep a note of events / times / dates / names of officers etc for use at any Tribunal appeals for backdating / claim start date changes.

Good luck.

Just noted - my LA is in Essex....!

If you'd like to mail me, feel free (but there will be no reply until at least the weekend): k e v i n . p r o @ i c 2 4 . n e t .

If you contact me, I'd be happy to chat with you - especially if it happens to be the same LA.

Regards
Kevin

Hi Lisa

Yep! You're right. The regs are more or less the same as for DWP benefits. The relevant reg is 83(2) – “form shall be provided free of charge” and reg 83(4) – form may be sent or delivered to the LA or DWP office (if a claimant is claiming certain DWP benefits).

Regards
Paul

Thankyou for your replies - very helpful!

Hi Lisa,

I apologise for not contacting you via e-mail - this is due to personal circumstances. Fortunately, I have access to the board and I hope that this helps in the meantime.

I'd suggest a (polite) complaint pointing out that there is nothing in the Regs requiring clmts to claim HB/CTB via the DWP. I'd take Paul's points as observations and present them in the complaint along the lines he stated - i.e. :

1) LAs are required to issue forms free of charge (without fettering); AND

2) The wording of HBR 83(4) makes it clear that it is the clmt who has the choice of where to make the claim (obviously, within the limitations of the regs) - it is not for the LA to decide whether or not to accept a claim.

If you continue to get problems, or if the reply merely points to DWP guidance etc (as I suspect it will), by all means come back. Hopefully by then I'll be in a position to deal more directly with you.

Just for info, if an appeal results from this issue, I'd be happy to assist you free of charge (subject only to availability).

Regards

Revised JCP guidance has been issued on 18/9/06 about clerical claim forms (CCF) to take effect from 2/10/06.
This will no doubt also apply to LA's for HB and CTB.

The Jobcentre Plus preferred method of taking new claims to benefits is to use the telephone to enable interaction with the customer supported by CMS, other traditional routes such as customers asking for claim forms or writing in with requests remain open.

The customers reasons for requesting a CCF should be established in all cases to ensure that Jobcentre Plus is providing the appropriate services to meet the customers individual needs.

The whole idea behind using CMS is that all info is gathered at one phone call, and to avoid filling a number of different claim forms.

However, it has now been recognised that one phone call is not suitable for everyone -(language barriers/Speech or hearing difficulties etc).

Hope this helps.

Mick,

The problem is encapsulated in your own post with just one word:

"guidance".

For HB/CTB, a clmt is still perfectly entitled to INSIST on making a claim for HB/CTB directly to the LA, irrespective of claims for other benefits. CMS is fine if that is the route a clmt wishes to take, but Lisa's clients are finding the LA in question (of which I personally have experience) are refusing to accept claims. That is simply unlawful. The LA are following GUIDANCE; not LAW.

As an aside, from my own experience of assessing HB/CTB, CMS is not, in practice, providing this wonderful world of "one office covers all". As a very obvious example, if a clmt is not entitled to IS/JSA(IB) etc, the info on the LAID (LA Input Document - i.e. the HB/CTB claim form generated by the JC+) will still need to be verified by the LA. You may ask "Why?". Simple; DWP/JC generally verify info to a different standard - a LOWER standard. Example: If cap is below a certain amount, JC+ don't normally verify it. If LAs fail to verify cap (at the same level), they get caned by auditors, BFI and any other bureaucrat that is the flavour of the month.

Also, in JSA(C) cases, JC often don't even verify income because JSA(C) isn't means tested. LAs need to know & verify ALL income in non-IS/JSA(IB) cases.

Further down the line, for investigation cases, LAs are finding it very difficult to obtain original docs from JC. The reality is that JC / DWP do not (generally) see keeping records for LAs as any kind of a priority. This is based on first hand experience.

In my opinion, CMS is a Welfare Rights Officer's dream; a LA's nightmare; and worst of all, hugely confusing to the clmt in terms of wondering who deals with what and where to provide info to.

Regards

".....However, it has now been recognised that one phone call is not suitable for everyone -(language barriers/Speech or hearing difficulties etc)".


With respect, it should have been realised from the very beginning, when CMS was first invented, that a fairly large percentage of the claiming population wouldn't be able to use it - and still can't. Of the existing Incapacity benefit claiming population of 1.5 m, I believe about 700,000 are suffering from a mental illness - surely it must have crossed someones mind somewhere, that these claimants might just encounter a problem?

Notwithstanding the above administrative oversight, what really annoys many of us is the fact that in the rush to use CMS, JCP blatantly ignored the rights of claimants under exisiting regulations to make a clerical claim: not clerical claim under certain circumstances - clerical claims - period.

Even following the belated Guidance issued to local Managers in May, there are still call centres around the country blithely refusing to send out claim forms. You can almost hear the cry, like a belated dawn chorus - no, you can't have a form, we have to take the claim over the phone.....maybe the new guidancde will have an effect.

"....The whole idea behind using CMS is that all info is gathered at one phone call, and to avoid filling a number of different claim forms".

Whilst JCP may think this a good idea, completing claims over the phone takes an inordinately long time up to 40 minutes - most of us can complete an I/S and Incap claim forms in half that that time, and check on eligibility for HB/CTB, disability benefits for the family etc ....Mum looks after granny down the road - never claimed CA - nor has granny claimed any benefits...etc etc.

Finally, the clincher - under CMS and the associated centralised processing, processing times have increased leaving customers short of money, and having to resort to arguing about interim payments (where they know they exist).

"Revised JCP guidance has been issued on 18/9/06 about clerical claim forms (CCF) to take effect from 2/10/06.
This will no doubt also apply to LA's for HB and CTB".

Shawn
have we not seen this guidance yet, or did I miss something...?

Mick
Whats the number of the guidance please...

Mike- There is no number to this guidance, it's simply a reminder to all JCP staff on the internal JCP intranet.
The phrases "Revised JCP guidance...." and "However, it has...." are my words - as I am posting on this forum in a personal capacity in my own time.
The reminder to all JCP staff involved (Contact Centres/Jobcentres/Benefit Delivery),is that if somebody wants a clerical claim form - they can have one, or two or three.
Just like Direct Payment to pay benefit, CMS is JCP's preferred method whether you, the customers (or I and my colleagues) like it or not. Most staff don't like CMS by the way, but we HAVE to use it- it's not an option for us.
Again, (my words) it's been recognised that the CMS process could/should be better, and hopefully some improvements in claims clearence times will occur in early 07.

Mick,

I sincerely offer this in the spirit of being constructive.

CMS may be the "preferred" method of claiming, but please please please bear in mind that clmts for HB/CTB are not REQUIRED to claim HB/CTB via this method. The clmts, legally, have a choice.

Also, as an aside, whenever JCs get HB/CTB enquiries (certainly beyond the claim stage), they should be referred to the LA. JCs, acknowledged to be in good faith, offer advice on HB/CTB which all too often is incorrect. Most LAs I've worked with don't presume to know JSA / IS regs. Unfortunately, JCs & DWP offices all to often assume HB/CTB regs are the same (if only...!) or that clmts don't need to tell LAs of changes in circs (they usually do - even if the change has already been notified to a JC or DWP office).

On the one hand, government (irrespective of political colour) have these grandiose ideas of simplification while on the other hand consistently demonstrating an inordinate capacity for utterly failing to achieve stated aims. In my strictly personal opinion, this is due to rank incompetence combined with a total lack of understanding of the reality of benefit administration at the sharp end. Having been in benefits since 1984 (barring a 3 yr break), I've had the dubious privilege of seeing both Conservative & Labour governments handle benefits with pretty much equal indistinction.

Erm, perhaps Mrs Pritchard can improve matters...

Regards

Kevin
I don't disagree with your post. I have worked for 'the Social' since 1977, and I have not seen (and felt) so much change in benefit administration from any prev govt.
However, everything we do is always on the cheap-
*CMS was bought off the shelf in a fire sale at PC World on a wet Wednesday, and the hammer and chisel were bought in the next financial year!!!!!(Only joking- or am I?)
*There's are no regs/law about Direct Payment, although the staff HAD to enforce it;
*There's are no regs/law about using CMS,,, and the list goes on.
I am surprised that you have encountered JC's offering advice (right or wrong) about HB/CTB- but like anything else 'a little knowledge is dangerous'.
It doesn't help when JCP is 'mystery shopped',(even on days when JCP staff have taken industral action to stop the job cuts etc). Yes, even on my IB section we been asked about 'HB run on'- 'No I don't know anything about HB run on- you'll need to ring the LA'.
At the top of JCP, it would be expected that I should know the answer, at the bottom of JCP, I know I don't have the time to find it.
Sorry- we can't employ Mrs Pritchard- she would take us over our reducing 'headcount'.

Yesterday, I was lucky enough to attend a 'landlords liaision meeting' with the HB Dept concerned.

There were about 15 people at the meeting, plus three HB staff. I explained the difficulty we were encountering and requested that a 'special arrangement' was made for the 8 residents at the project to be allowed to continue to make paper claims, in advance, for HB as they were approaching 18.

I was blankly refused this request. ALL claimants of HB who are in receipt of or claiming IS, JSA or Incapacity Benefit MUST claim via the Job Centre - we WILL NOT accept paper claims from them directly UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES....

I resorted to quoting legislation at them and eventually one of them agreed to 'double-check' the rules, but all three were pretty adamant that they would send away anyone who attempted to claim HB from them directly and were in receipt of IS / JSA / ICB.

I am thinking the next step is a formal complaint / Local Government Ombudsman?

Outrageously and totally illegal - a strongly worded letter to the chief executive, copied to the Benefits manager in the first instance asking for written confirmation of the regulations that they are allegedly using to circumvent customer's rights. In order to ensure they do not prevaricate, I would also request that information under the freedom of Information Act, which gives them 20 days to reply.

Are you at liberty to say which Council we are talking about? ..... seems they are picking up bad habits from JCP.

Thanks - its Braintree.

Just a quick update to say that Braintree have seen the error of their ways and decided that they can accept paper claims direct to them after all! Thanks to everyone who helped me with this.
lisa