Hi,
The Turnbull Judgement is just about hitting North Wales especially in high level supported accomodation. We have a couple of high level/high rent supported accomodation schemes starting and we are concerned that the Turnbull Judgement would have a significant affect on the amount of Housing benefit/Local Housing Allwoance paid. What is classed as 'exempt' supported accomodation with 24 hour support is still a little unclear at this time.

I would be gratefull for advice or any experiences in respect of this especially from advisers in the South of the Country.

Thank you

There are other threads on "exempt accommodation" on Rightsnet - a search should locate those threads.

"Exempt accommodation" means accommodation that is provided by:

- a Housing Association (whether or not a RSL); OR
- a registered charity; OR
- a voluntary organisation (i.e. not for profit)

AND where

care, or support, or supervision (CSS) is provided by EITHER the landlord itself, or by a person on behalf of the L/L.


Note that if the L/L is not one of the type set out above, a claim cannot be "exempt accommodation", irrespective of the arrangements for CSS.

Further, if the L/L is one of the type set out above, but CSS is provided by, or on behalf of a.n. other, again it cannot be exempt accommodation.

In other words, BOTH the L/L AND CSS criteria have to be satisfied.

CSS does not have to be "24 hours". But, it must be more than minimal and must be provided as a fact - not merely a tick-box or paper exercise. One CD suggests that as little as 3 hours *may* be sufficient, but that was not firmly decided one way or the other.

If a claim does not fall within the exempt accommodation exception, then either LHA or rent officer figures will apply.

Don't be at all surprised if LAs undertake detailed investigations to confirm that what they are being told reflects the reality of what it happening on the ground. Unfortunately, there have been too many cases where the information given to LAs has been less than "accurate".

If you want to discuss tactics in any particular case you are welcome to give me a call - I have been involved in most of the decisions that Mr Turnbull has made on the subject of exempt accom

Tel: 0114 255 4526 or 07771 600047

essential.rights@legalisp.net

Simon Ennals

Hi Simon,

Thank you for your reply,

Have left a messge on your voice mail. Would like to speak to you at your earliest convenience.

Simon's post has prompted me into remembering I should express an interest, in the interests of transparency.

I have previously assisted (and continue to assist) local authorities in cases where high rents are being charged in cases that are presented to local authorities as falling within the "exempt accommodation" exception.

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your reply

Any information or advice you can give me in respect of the above would be appreciated. That is exactly what I am looking for as we have 2 new Schemes Starting in this area where the rent is very high and we need to know if they will fall in the 'exempt accomodation'or if there are any 'loop holes' we could look into.

Can I contact you?

Hi Nicky,

I would be more than happy to advise, but given that my advice is generally to the benefits sections of LAs, I'm not sure the advice offered would be entirely what you would want to hear..... Also, on a less flippant note, it is conceivable that advising on the part of claimants / landlords may result in, or in itself be, a conflict of interests on my part.

If it is indeed the appellants / L/L you are assisting, it would probably be more appropriate to contact Simon, or indeed another WR expert (such as, for example, Neil Bateman).

Just a bit of background on who knows who....

Simon and myself have never met in person, but we are aware of each other's involvement in some cases where we have assisted in those same cases from opposite sides. I also know Mr Bateman and occasionally assist him with HB/CTB related work, but my reference to him on the specific issue of exempt accom is entirely neutral - I simply happen to know he has an interest in that issue that *may* (or may not) mean he is able to assist you.

I stress, this is in no way intended to point you one way or another; the above is intended to provide factual information in order that you can judge as best as possible on who you would wish to approach. I hope that LASA / Rightsnet view this post in that light.

HB Circular A22/2008 seems to have sparked lots of activity in Durham. Claims are being systematically reviewed, but so far only those affecting non-RSL landlords are being revised.

We're putting appeals in where necessary, and against expectations in October I won a pre-A22 case which hinged on the definition of a 'voluntary organisation'. That decision, it seems, will be appealed to the Upper Tier by the District Council concerned.

Good to see the re-emergence of this thread, and I may well take Simon up on his kind offer of tactics swapping soon...!!!

I ought to also add that the Supporting People team at the Welsh assembly are particularly useless on this issue and don't understand it. They keep enouraging Welsh Associations to set up arrangements that are not exempt accommodation.

The circular in its original pre-publication form was truly awful, and legally wrong in so many ways. The final version - after many comments from the sector - is mostly accurate, although I have some issues over sleep over rooms and whether to 'provide' accommodation you have to be the landlord. However, I am sure that the main effect of the circular will be to raise the profile of the issues, and thus prompt authorities to review existing cases, as Durham seem to be doing from the last posting. It will also be interesting to see whether RSLs start being hit, given that the circular reminds LAs that they can refer them to the RO if they think the rent is too high.

I agree with Chris that government - not just in Wales - clearly does not really understand the issue at all. Although the confusion over exempt accommodation is keeping me in work at present, it clearly needs to be sorted out by a regulation change to make clear what is exempt and what is not, to avoid silly arguments about what is de minimis and what is not.......

Simon Ennals

permission to JR Commissioner Turnbull's refusal to give leave to appeal in CH/2751/2007 has been granted ...

... see today's rightsnet news

(thank you to Desmond Rutledge, Barrister at Garden Court Chambers, for alerting us to the case)

Hi.
I have had a lot of practical experience with this problem including setting up schemes appropriately for many years without making them contrived in any way Some of them are attracting higher rents because of the costs of supplying the schemes in the first place. There are clear ways that the housing/ support and care have to be provided to satisfy the regulations and in my view there is a role for the supported housing landlord still, especially with the most vulnerable who tend to be the people who need higher rental levels. Are any of your prospective tenants eligible for a personalised budget. I know Denbighshire is thinking of piloting this and I am highly involved in Wrexham in dealing with the implementation of this from the support brokerage side. I think this could also help.

I am part of the working group with the DWP that includes many of us affected by the Turnbull judgement. This working group includes Mencap, James Churchill, Maurice Harker, Andrew Young and various others with representatives of the DWP and CSIP.

If you would like to contact me by email please do.
My telephone number is 01490 430571. I am relatively local to you and also have schemes for supporting people all over the UK fort he registered charity Ling Trust.

Your schemes look very vulnerable.