I have in the back of my mind a half remembered quote that i need to be able to quote accurately and reference. I believe what i am looking for spoke of the "laberynthian complexity of Social Security law" and suggested that giving advice was best left to experienced social workers rather than to lawyers.

If anyone out there in Welfare Rights land has any idea what it is i am talking about could you put me out of my misery and tell me.

Thanking you all in advance.

Don't know for sure, cos I haven't got a copy, but it sounds like the sort of quote that might be in a monograph published in the eighties by Saul Becker, a former WRO colleague and now an academic. The quote that I remember from it went something like "The benefits system needs someone with the patience of a saint, the persistence of a ferret and the intellect of a philosopher to make sense of it." It was called, naturally, Saints Ferrets and Philosophers.

Does that sound like anyone's job description?

"best left to experienced social workers rather than to lawyers"

LOL! IN my experience social workers don't have much of a clue about benefits and I promise not to take offence at the bit about lawyers!

From Lawyer Land

(with the intellect of a ferret, the drinking habits of a philosopher and the patience of hyperactive 3 year old with ADHD)

As best i remember the quote was by a commissioner or a judge or somebody legal and when i know who said it you can take it up with him or her. As for social workers, this was, i think, in the days before specialist WRO's etc.

Becker, S., MacPherson, S. and Silburn, R. (1983)
Saints, Ferrets and Philosophers: Social Workers and Supplementary Benefit
Benefits Research Unit, University of Nottingham

ps. There's nothing wrong with the intellect of a Ferret!

I have a half-remembered quote which used the even more expressive "Byzantine complexity", but couldn't tell you where it came from! The National Audit Office has been doing something about benefit complexity - you might see if you could find something there.

brigid

I think one of the comissioners, lord justices or law lords said that.

Just googled "benefit complexity" and found this...and use to you?

http://www.cpag.org.uk/info/briefings_policy/CPAG_simplificiation_benefits.pdf

I was mistaken. It was Conservative MP Paul Goodman who said: -

"However, the Pension Credit unquestionably adds further complexity to an already byzantine system of retirement provision, which is causing confusion for pensioners, pension providers and those saving for their old age."

From our CD-Rom

CIS/2211/2002

"I do not need to refer to the positively Byzantine nature of the drafting of these Regulations, since that has been done so often before and by people better qualified to do so than me.

J M Henty
Commissioner"

R1/04 (SF)
"The material parts of regulation 6 of these Regulations, which have been framed with the Byzantine complexity customary in the social security legislation, may for present purposes be conveniently summarised in the following propositions:"

I had a case in the Court of Appeal concerning backdating reduced earnings allowance several years ago where the Judge said
"the wording of this legislation does damage to the english language"

My long time favourite is from Commissioner Hywel:

"The principle as thus understood has been described as extraordinary, and draconian: (see Mesher, Income Related Benefits, 1996 Edn. 191, though the second epithet may be thought a little unfair to Draco, whose harsh code of 621 BC was at least coherent)

My apologies for not getting back and thanking people for their suggestions on my reference search. When i eventually track it down i promise to post the reference here.

Lee

haven't found my quote yet, but see para 1 to Secretary of State for Work and Pensions v Morina & Anr as referenced in Rightsnet news today.

Did you mean R v IMMIGRATION APPEAL TRIBUNAL ex parte SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT <1993> Imm AR 298, in which Judge Popplewell said:

Mr Scannell has urged that the phrase 'admitted for settlement' means someone who is either entitled to settlement or has applied and is clearly going to succeed. I do not take that view. It is doing terrible damage to the English language. The object of this rule is that, if the children are to come to this country with mother, mother must either be settled here or have the right to come here, a right which has been accepted, and come in with the children.