Dawn Primarolo, Paymaster General, made the following statement in a Westminster Hall debate on Tax Credits on Wednesday:

"I should remind everyone in the House that all conversations with the helpline are recorded, so we can go back and hear what was said and whether the system was notified. We do that on a case-by-case basis in order to give a fair judgment when challenged on overpayment." (click here for link to full transcript of session

Is it really believable that the IR (or whatever they're called now) record and keep every single helpline call made and can use this information when making overpayment decisions?

I find this very difficult to accept but if anyone has any first hand experience where such action has occurred in relation to an O/P (i.e. client states disclosure made by phone on such a date, IR state that they have checked phone records, etc), I would be interested to hear about it.

I have to tell you Paul I have an extensive CD collection courtesy of the Inland Revenue. Many's the time I've sat enthralled at my desk hooked in to my personal CD player with closed eyes and a happy smile.

Dawn not telling porkies. You can get recordings of the conversations

I have requested CD recordings of calls for approximately 6 clients to support our arguments for why an overpayment should not be recovered. To date I have received one CD of one call which was exactly what I asked for and absolutely supports the client's assertion of bad advice received from a helpline adviser (ie helpline adviser actully said - "no, we don't take incapacity benefit into account as income at all". This case is now with the adjudicator.

In all the other cases the tax credit office have failed to produce the goods. In one case we requested CD recordings of 5 calls. We received CD with one call only and the recording actually ended just after the client had answered the security questions.

In other cases we have received vague responses from the data protection unit that the tax credit office are having trouble locating the calls without exact dates and that the Northern Irleand helpline operates under different technology to the Preston line, so calls may not be available before a certain date. We have, of course, requested that the specific date and specific problems with the Northern Ireland helpline be advised to us in writing so we can include this as evidence to pursue case to adjudicator's office. We have also requested in all cases printouts of the household notes from the client's computer case file since these will clearly show the dates and times of calls made to the helpline, thus making a mockery of TCO's assertion that they cannot locate the call without an exact date. Again we are awaiting response from Data Protection Unit..... This little tennis match has been ongoing since January.... We have taken the route of pursuing the client's complaint through the system, stating what the client says they were told in the call and adding "since the TCO have failed to provide us with a CD recording of the call then our client's recollection of the converstaion remains undisputed."

My personal opinion is that the recording of calls was used as a threat to clients - ie "we can listen to recordings so you can't lie about what you were told" - but this is now backfiring because so much bad advice has been issued by the helpline that clients are actully using the recordings to support their own cases.

Andrea

Thanks for that Andrea, it is interesting to see the wide gulf between what is promised/claimed and what is actually delivered.

I wonder if this is something that CPAG/LITR should be taking up under their NTC campaign, because as you note, the use of recordings seems to be being used more as a threat to claimants than as a positive contribution to resolving disputes?

I wonder if any cases have actually made it to appeal where there is dispute about what a claimant has told a helpline, and a recording cannot be produced - it would be useful for some caselaw to be developed on this subject so let us know how your cases get on.