I need help on a case I have before me and hope someone can give my brain a hand. I,m sorry for the length of the post.

Husband died in May and immediately before and for the whole of last year the couple were on Income Support.

She applied for CTC and was given an award backdated 3 months before the date of claim,from february 2004, for a period when she and her husband were in receipt of Income Support. I've looked at reg 7 (Claims & Notifications) which allows backdate but her situation would seem to also fall under TC ACT 5(4)which precludes "earlier days" being paid if in receipt of IS etc. My common sense tells me the system won't allow duplicated payments but as its Tax Credits!!! I'm not sure and I cant find anything to it.

It looks like automatic CTC backdate has been allowed without checking whether she was in fact entitled to credits and they're going to come knocking in future for the OP. I've been in touch and you guessed it "put it in your bank account and we'll get back to you". She knows they've paid TC for a period before her date of claim and just wants to pay it back. They say no can do.

She's received two award letters, one from Feb04 to 6/4/04 for £488, and the other for the current year.


Is there provision to award and pay CTC for a period before the date of claim when a client was receiving IS for their kids. In effect can she keep the £800 backdate or is it an overpayment.

If it is an OP would TC ACT 5(4) allow her to keep the payment from 6th April up till her husband died. That provision only seems to bite on restricting backdated payments before that date.

And, if they should'nt have backdated, would there be any mileage in appealing the awards she has received and hoping to lose, in effect the Tribunal determining the awards were correctly made. Could such a decision from a tribunal stop the Inland revenue from determining later there has been an OP.

Any help much appreciated.

You seem to be very lucky.
My client had no IS for the children and IR "automatically" (it woz the computer wot did it apparently) refused them the backdate because they were on IS.
Sorry. I am not actually helping, just complaining.
If it is an overpayment, did she know ? Is it recoverable under the new rules ?

I think it will be. She certainly isn't comfy with the idea that there is £800 lying in her account. I did wonder if I went to an appeal and lost then res judicata might work in some way to stop them recovering after. Perverse isn't it

She just wants rid and can't afford the hassle

The amnesty still seems to be a live issue.
Its difficult. I can see why she doesn't want to have to keep the money, but if there is even a chance she can keep it maybe it is worth waiting.

One of our workers has just dropped in from conducting a training session where the talk drifted around to tax credits and most there were having real problems. Thats 20 people and a major percentage of them wish they had never applied so possibly there's some possibility the amnesty might acheive something. But the problem with tax credits seems to be who administers it. They won't complain. They moan about it but because its the taxman they hold back. Admit it, how many people look at their pay slips and how much tax they are shelling out but then console themselves by looking at the net figure. I do it.

The IR has never really been subject to outright critiscism from joe public about the way it conducted itself until tax credits came along. My client said as much the same. If this had been benefit she would fight it but tax credits are not benefit whatever drool they give out. Its operation is more of a personal tax allowance.

I'd love to be able to turn round to IR and say get stuffed but the reality is that there's no appeal against overpayment and having to tell clients that gives me no pleasure. I feel unless the IR get one huge kick up their backside then people like my client will in the end just accept the absurdity of it all and not challenge.

God this is bloody awful, i'm going for my dinner

Wouldn't it be an overpayment of IS under the late payment of income rules?

Before anyone calls me a sad sod for posting a message at 6.50pm I've just been checking out my winners and losers on teletext racing. Up to now Lydia's Look won 9/2 and Farewell Gift 2nd 13/8, 4 more to go on my EW Heinz -- hmmmmm Sorry Andy, Just a little bit carried away

Yes, I thought of that and contacted a reliable guy in IS whose response was they would'nt attempt to recover. I think the hidden subliminal message was something along the lines of " and why the hell should we have to clear up the IR's mess". I take his point

I thought you might find this useful. You know how people who claim tax credits can be entitled upto a 3 month backdate automatically as long as they have met the qualifying conditions during this period, well I have been having major problems getting this for my clients.
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>I tried putting it on the form itself at the back, adding an attachment to the form including contracts from employers confirming start dates. No joy.
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>Decisions were being made but in all these cases no backdates were given. So I then tried the advice line. On some occasions I was told they would take the information over phone and update the computer system there and then. Then you wouldn't hear anything. On other occasions you were advised to put it in writing. You still wouldn't hear anything.
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>Finally, I started appealing (in desperation).
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>This has resulted in some rather interesting information coming from the appeals officers on backdating.
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>They sent a letter to a client saying that they were still looking for guidance on this issue and would be in touch in due course.
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>I therefore rang the appeals officer who said there were 2 problems with backdating.
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>1 the start date on the computer system cannot currently be changed to put in a prior date. However, the advisor would not actually know this. The computer allows you change the date in the field. The advisors have been told that overnight the central system is updated. However, it doesn't update. They are trying to change this on the computer system, but it has been going on for a while.
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>2 they need guidance over whether tax credit can be paid when someone is being paid the 2 week run on of Income Support. They have not been told how to deal with this and are still awaiting guidance. I assume here she was just referring to lone parents.
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>She said the cases involving backdating that they were dealing currently dealing with date back to last July! However, she had been told that if they can't resolve this soon (no time scale obviously) then consideration was being given to doing manual payments. Finally, she said in every case like this you should appeal. She said although in theory a letter or phone call should be enough in practice it is appeals that are taken notice of and everything else sort of gets pushed to one side.
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>Of course, if you already know all of this, I apologise, but thought it might be useful.

Thanks Suzhal I didn't know any of that but it doesn't surprise me. It does surprise me just how ill prepared Inland Revenue seem to have been for the implementation of Tax Credits. Was it the April last or the April before they came in? I can't remember and I've gone all fuzzy.

Tony

It was April 2003 so we're a little way past past the implementation stage now. Probably into something like the institutionalised *****d up stage. Sorry, not sure if asterisks are allowed on Rightsnet and think I must be getting slightly cynical...