Soemone please tell me I am right here because the TC Helpdesk says not.
Scenario (I know. Sorry): Young man in FT non-advanced education, aged 18. End of term comes along. he becomes 19. Intention is to go back to college again in September but then exam results are not very good and young man decides to leave.
"Terminal date" for CB is 31 August. Therefore CB and also Child Tax Credit are stii payable until then. Yes?

Have faith. CTC Reg 3.1.1 says that a claimant can get CTC for a qualifying young person. First terminal date would be 31 Aug. I think your HMRC contact may be getting confused with the possible 20 week extension period from the date education ceases (not the same as the terminal date). This is not available past the 18th birthday..

I'm not so sure that this has anything to do with misunderstanding the 20 week rule. Think it is more likely to be the Revenue mis-interpreting the regs re entitlement after the age of 19 i.e. 5(3A) of CTC Regs.

In order to get CB/CTC beyond the age of 19, the young person must be on a course that they had started before their 19th birthday (or from 16th Aug a course that they were accepted onto before they were 19 - see Rightsnet story http://tinyurl.com/2na7hb). I suspect that the Revenue is arguing that since the young person turned 19 after term-time ended they cannot take advantage of this rule. However there surely has to be a good case for appealing on the basis that young person should be treated as remaining on their course until the terminal date rather than the date that the school term ended.

Thanks for your advice, guys. In this case I don't think the Helpline worker was thinking of 5(3A). The chap in question did not become 19 until 1 August and yet I was told CTC should have ceased on the day he finished his course/took his last exam, which was at the end of June.

Maybe the easiest thing would be for him to change his mind again and say he is stopping on the course after all, but that would be the easy way out and not prevent the same incorrect information being given out to hundreds or thousands of others in the same position.

Watch this space for further details.

For CTC, in this case, I've always used the date the poor exam results are known, as this is the date the child could be expected to look for a permanent position. I believe this is consistent with the guidance at http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/eligibility_ctc/ntc0270040.htm
As I'm sure you know the problem with tax credit advisers ( speaking as one, and as a customer ) is you never get the same story twice.

The guidance seems to be illogical, Henry, and I think it needs testing with a challenge. If Child Benefit is payable (and JSA therefore not) until the Monday after the terminal date then I would expect CTC to be payable also. The way Isee it is: when a 19 year old is able to claim his own benefit then that is the moment when his parents' entitlement to CTC (and Child Benefit, of course) comes to an end. If you CAN calim, it's JSA. If you CANNOT then it's CTC. Doesn't that sound reasoable?

Thanks for your contribution Henry. I’m still not quite getting this though. The page from the HMRC manual you referenced and the definition of a qualifying young person it links to effectively say that if a youngster stays on at school beyond the academic year in which their 16th birthday falls, then leaves and does not intend to enter advanced education, CTC ceases to become payable when the education ceases, i.e. they have to actually be in education for CTC to be payable. But is there not provision for treating such youngsters as qualifying young persons up to the first of the 4 terminal dates of the end of August, November, February and May after the education ceases? I have in mind Reg 7 Case 1 of the Child Benefit (General) Regulations 2006.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2006/20060223.htm#7

I cannot see any reference here to the youngster’s subsequent intentions to enter advanced education. Para 9(2)(b) of the Tax Credit Act 2002 includes in the maximum rate of CTC an element for each child or qualifying young person for whom the claimant is responsible.

Presumably the same rules apply to both CTC and CB as they are both HMRC “benefits”.

Brian

I'm not aware of any synchronisation between CHB and CTC regulations, though I have to agree it would make sense for them to fall in line with each other. All i can do in my tax credit work is apply CTC regs. However, I also have to agree that the CTC guidelines are at best confusing - if a claimant was to say "The date at which the young person ( my son/daughter ) no longer regards themselves as being in FTE is 31/08 or whatever appropriate date" on a formal overpayment dispute or appeal and quoted the regulation, and said it was on the basis that CHB was still in payment and my son/daughter couldnt sign on, I considered them still to be in education, I'd be very interested to learn if it's successful.

Hi Henry

Surely there is synchronisation between CTC and CB because a qualifying young person is defined by CB regs, and a person treated as a QYP up to the terminal dates is defined by the Child Benefit(General)Regulations 2006 I have referred to. I thought these were then carried across to CTC. Are there separate CTC regs defining a QYP, or somebody treated as one, in a different way?

Brian

Hello Brian,
Rightly or wrongly ( as a member of the public I would say wrongly ) CTC and CB for children over school leaving age do not have synchronised regulations. For most of a child's FTNAE the rules are the same, but they weren't designed the same, and they differ by a long way when applied to a child who finishes college at end of June with no intention to return to education ( CTC till last day of attendance, CB till 31/08 ). The link you give, and the application of terminal dates is for CB only. A challenge would be interesting though.

Hello Henry
Thanks for your reply. We really do appreciate contributions from "the other side". Sorry to be a pain (but then that's probably why I'm a welfare rights officer!). As the CB and CTC regs are apparently different, can you point me towards the CTC reg which defines a qualifying young person (and someone treated as a QYP if appropriate) for youngsters who stay on at school beyond the academic year in which they reach 16.

Regards

Brian

Hello Brian,
Hope these links are helpful
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ccmmanual/ccm18025.htm
This is from the compliance manual and probably says it the most succinctly.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ntcmanual/glossary/youngperson.htm
This is from the tax credits technical manual.
regards
Henry

Henry

Am I right in thinking that the links you have given us refer us to your guidance? I can't see any references to any regulations which would back this advice up.

CC

hi
how about - s8(4) TCA 2002 regs 2 definition of 'qualifying young person'
and 5(1)-(3A) CTC regs
found in CPAG page 1212.