andrew and ken, thank you very much much... i'm not sure if it was the one i had in mind... i seem to remember it as more of a shorter 'harumpph', tacked on to another issue, but perhaps my memory is playing its tricks... in any event, this one is very useful, and para 38 sounds very much like whatever it was i was thinking of...(having another not sure if i'm coming or going day...)
cheers
jj
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