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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #1476

Subject: "Pre-Budget report news ........." First topic | Last topic
shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

Pre-Budget report news .........
Mon 05-Dec-05 03:16 PM

Mon 05-Dec-05 04:27 PM by shawn

Chancellor has just announced that threshold above which changes in income need to be reported for tax credit purposes will rise from £2,500, to £25,000 in April 2006...........

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Gareth Morgan, 05th Dec 2005, #1
RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Gareth Morgan, 05th Dec 2005, #2
RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Damian, 06th Dec 2005, #4
RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Tony Bowman, 06th Dec 2005, #3
RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Paul Treloar, 06th Dec 2005, #5
      RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Gareth Morgan, 06th Dec 2005, #6
           RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Paul Treloar, 06th Dec 2005, #7
                RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., shawn, 06th Dec 2005, #8
                     RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Derek, 06th Dec 2005, #9
                          RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Gareth Morgan, 22nd Dec 2005, #10
                               RE: Pre-Budget report news ........., Tony Bowman, 22nd Dec 2005, #11

Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Mon 05-Dec-05 04:54 PM

Top of my head response,

This is clearly an expensive way of avoiding overpayments.

People leaving unemployment and going into jobs paying less than 25k will get maximum TC for that year.

What happens in year 2? Is that when the big income drops happen?

His speech only refers to CTC but it would be difficult to decouple WTC.

  

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Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Mon 05-Dec-05 05:00 PM

The detailed papers show the disregard for WTC as well.

  

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Damian
                              

WRO(Health), Salford WRS
Member since
23rd May 2005

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 08:49 AM

I hope people will be aware enough of the potential big drop: get new job - biggish salary - buy new house with enormous mortgage - sudden drop in income - can't pay the mortgage.

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 08:48 AM

I agree, Gareth; and I find it quite worrying.

The biggest cause of 'in year' overpayments, in my opinion, is a combination of the £2,500 'free-gift' combined with the slow turn-around of the reconcilliation process.

This seems like an unthought through quick-fix to the overpayments problem with potential to cause massive overpayments.

The equivalent award of tax credits (CTC and WTC) is based on, I estimate, a couple with around 13 children (8 of whom get a baby element) with one wage earner earning £12,000 a year.

What is going on....?

  

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Paul Treloar
                              

Policy Officer, London Advice Services Alliance, London
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 08:55 AM

"An expensive way to avoid overpayments" - I'm not so sure Gareth - it could be viewed as an extremely pragmatic way to deal with one of the main flaws of the TC system as it was introduced, that is the unresponsive nature that does not allow for the many variations of income that can occur in low income families over any 12 month period.

For sure, the immediate effect in some cases is that some people will get maximum TC, even tho they may be on a substantially higher income than the previous tax year. But if it avoids the administrative chaos that has accompanied the last couple of years of TCs, if it means that people are not consistently plunged into poverty levels of income due to the difficulty in administering the TC system as it stood, if it means that people can properly plan their income over time, then I think this could actually be viewed as a cheap fix that could allow HMRC to look at ways of improving their service without continually being sucked into battles of recovery of what are often, in the wider scheme of things, quite small overpayments.

Yes, there will be income falls in year 2 for someone maintaining in their employment but surely better that than the current uncertainty - actually, if the threshold is £25k up or down, the payback would come when someone leaves employment and their income goes down...would that mean that they will be locked into their existing level of TC entitlement, regardless of the fact that they're earning say £20k less a year?

Hmm, need to go away and think about this some more.....

  

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Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 10:39 AM

No paul, it's only the increases that are ignored.

I'll do a bit of modelling on this, it's not entirely simple as you need to consider issues including lower HB/CTB in year 1 and higher in year 2 etc.

  

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Paul Treloar
                              

Policy Officer, London Advice Services Alliance, London
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 10:49 AM

Tue 06-Dec-05 10:53 AM by Paul Treloar

Yes, I've just been reading Dawn Primarolo's statement to the House yesterday and I noticed the £25k is for increases in income only.

Whilst I accept that it isn't entirely simple, I still feel that this measure, if the 95% figure quoted for for reduction of overpayments is correct, can only be a good thing, in relation to entitlement rules as they currently stand.

The thorny relationship between increases in income and marginal deduction rates caused by corresponding reductions of HB/CTB is ever-present and still not tackled in a meaningful way. However, that is more a problem of stand-still income levels overall for claimants despite increases in their income, generally speaking, rather than the TC o/p problem which was severely reducing incomes regardless.

Good luck with your models, maybe you should check the IFS website cos they're usually good at that sort of thing.

  

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shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 11:39 AM

the 8 tax credit measures announced yesterday, of which the £25,000 issue is one, are outlined in today's rightsnet news story @

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/cgi-bin/sub_client/search.cgi?template2=news/user_details2.htm&output_number=1&news.ID=1261227846

  

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Derek
                              

CAB Adviser, Esher CAB
Member since
09th Mar 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Tue 06-Dec-05 04:31 PM

What concerns me about this is what will happen after the end of the tax year. If someone has a £20K pay increase in (say) Sept. 06 then it is ignored for the 06-07 year, but not for the 07-08 year. However, unless the claimant notifies TCO of the increase immediately the tax year ends the 07-08 payments will presumably be made based on the old (much lower) income until the annual reconciliation has been carried out. As this can take several months it could easily create a massive overpayment. Or have I misunderstood something?

  

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Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Thu 22-Dec-05 01:57 PM

I've produced a paper on the income disregard and issues following from that. If anybody would like a copy of the PDF, drop me an email and I'll send it on. gmorgan@ferret.co.uk.

The following is an extract but might give an idea of some of the figures for a couple with 2 kids and no childcare costs.



"...Here it can be seen that the maximum difference can be as much as £6,922.70. Indeed, on gross salaries from £24,000 to over £30,000 this couple would receive the maximum Tax Credit of almost £7,000 in the first year and no Working Tax Credit at all the next year.

For example, if one of this couple was to start work after a long period of unemployment, education or illness and receive the median UK 2005 pay of £22,412; what would this mean to them?

The net pay after deductions of Income Tax and National Insurance, over a full year, would be approximately £16,870.
On current figures the Tax Credits entitlement would give a net income (excluding Child Benefit and any other items) of


First Year

Net Pay £16,870
Tax Credits £1,797
Total £18,667

Subsequent Years
Net Pay £16,870
Tax Credits £872
Total £17,742

Following the changes, the figures will be

First Year

Net Pay £16,870
Tax Credits £6,922
Total £23,792

Subsequent Years
Net Pay £16,870
Tax Credits £872
Total £17,742

The generosity of the Tax Credit payments in the first year produce a generous bonus on entering or returning to employment, or on receiving an increase in pay. Figure 3 shows that the total Tax Credits payable over the first 2 years, in these circumstances, is substantially higher under the new rules. Figure 3 also clearly demonstrates that the concession is worth considerably more to the better paid than to those on lower incomes.

The considerably higher overall income in the first year, over £5,000 higher or over 35% of longer term income, may, in the absence of proper advice and information, encourage the family to enter into commitments which will prove unaffordable in the second year onwards. Neither the customers nor the providers will wish to find out too late that such situations have arisen.

The impact on the general financial situation of the recipient should also be considered. Even where any commitment could still be met, or where none was entered into, the pattern of spending may well have been set and, without foreknowledge of the likely income in subsequent years, the situation may become extremely difficult. Budgeting, with awareness of income changes that will arise, is much more likely to be kept to...."

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Pre-Budget report news .........
Thu 22-Dec-05 03:20 PM

This is a good example, Gareth; thanks.

For argument's sake, let's assume the award is £7,000pa.

If it takes HMRC six months (till October) to finalise the Y2 award, then there is an overpayment of £3,500 which will be recovered from the ongoing CTC award, exaggerating the loss of income in Y2.

Hence, the problem doesn't go away - it's just gets bigger....

  

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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #1476First topic | Last topic